RST: Gordon, after what occurred on the campus of The Ohio State College a few weeks in the past, I’m involved about your security. And possibly mine. Whereas I could not all the time agree with you, I’ll defend to the loss of life your proper to say it. However I’m not ready to place my physique on the road to guard you. Can we agree that there will likely be no extra knocking cameras out of arms or assault and battery?
EGG: I’ll attempt to abstain from having a fracas after a category I train, however I can not assure that a few of my acolytes is not going to turn into a bit pugilistic!
RST: If we will’t have civil discourse with those that disagree, we’re effectively and really screwed.
EGG: Rachel, I really feel sorry for the younger school member.
RST: Sorry for him how?
EGG: In fact, he mustn’t have shoved the man. However this I do know: They had been attempting to trigger a ruckus, and that isn’t journalism.
RST: Properly, I certain don’t really feel sorry for him. There is no such thing as a excuse for getting bodily with strangers anyplace however within the fitness center or on the dance ground. The video of that occasion, which I watched 9 instances, is chilling. And, I’ve to say, the paparazzi “journalists” don’t come out trying so nice, both. They gleefully chased you down the steps to comply with you to your automobile. Gordon, you might be an octogenarian who, whereas you’ll have extra fortitude than most lecturers, aren’t such a bodily specimen that you’ll all the time find yourself in your toes after a postclass “fracas.” I’ve turn into keen on you and was critically anxious in your well being.
EGG: Thanks, Rachel. And I respect that you simply referred to as me and instructed me to cease being such a public ache. And you actually had been irritated that I used to be driving myself.
RST: Gordon! So irritated! We had been on the cellphone for an hour when you had been rushing down I-70! I heard your automobile beeping at you. So I beeped louder.
EGG: You’re afraid I’ll keel over earlier than we get this partnership in full bloom and might say all we wish about the way forward for greater schooling. However, honestly, I respect the priority. And it goes to the larger level that college presidents are sometimes like piñatas. The president of Ohio State requested me after that occasion whether or not or not I wanted public security to assist me. The reality is that I do know quite a lot of presidents who discover it essential or who really feel threatened.
RST: We had been going to make use of this subsequent column to speak in regards to the resistance to alter. We’ll get there. However earlier than we tackle questions on coverage or politics, you’ve simply hit on a hidden fact about management on campus: It’s that the job itself may be harmful. Not only for reputations, however for our bodies, marriages and psychological well being. However as a result of presidents are public figures, folks typically overlook that they’re additionally folks. We see loads of that on social media.
EGG: I had a rule that I’d by no means learn social media. If I’d have carried out so, I most likely would by no means have gotten away from bed. My aim was all the time to maintain the individuals who disliked me away from the individuals who hated me.
RST: Whereas I by no means bought the memo, I do know it’s someplace within the School Handbook that we should hate directors. Why did folks hate you?
EGG: Up to now few years, I’ve needed to face the fact that management is a fight sport. In case you make choices which can be the truth is in the perfect curiosity of the college, it typically gores the oxes of embedded curiosity teams. Once I determined to promote parking at Ohio State, it was seen as “corporatization” of the college. Or, clearly, once I eradicated packages and school at West Virginia College, it was as if I had declared battle on the educational order. In in the present day’s world, if you’re a president who can rise above particular person pursuits and do what is true for the college and its long-term well being, you’ll want to perceive that could be very unpopular. The truth is in in the present day’s world your mates come and go, however your enemies accumulate.
RST: It’s attention-grabbing, as a result of I don’t know a single president who isn’t searching for different income streams or who isn’t fascinated by making cuts in program and school. These are instances when there aren’t any straightforward options and choices—even previously yr—are extra painful than ever. Your granddaughters will sing to you that haters gonna hate. Particularly when everyone seems to be scared for his or her jobs.
However in a bit about Jonathan Holloway and Ana Mari Cauce, Len Gutkin within the Chron noticed, “I used to be struck, shocked actually, by the coincidence that each of the previous faculty presidents interviewed final week by my colleague … had both been threatened with or had suffered bodily hurt whereas on the job.” Properly, I used to be struck that this was a shock to somebody who covers greater ed. As quickly as I began having conversations with presidents, all I heard about was how scary the job may be.
EGG: Really, I’m glad that we’re having this dialogue. A college president in in the present day’s world must be Janus-faced. To the folks you serve within the public, you need to make it as constructive as attainable. However in your private time, you discover it very tough due to the entire pressures and the bodily pressure. I don’t need to make this right into a pity social gathering, as a result of I lived in huge homes, had nice assist, made good salaries—
RST: [cough]
EGG: —and had a really energizing life. However there’s a private value.
RST: I’ve been listening to from presidents about loss of life threats since I began engaged on The Sandbox, which launched only some months after Oct. 7, 2023, when issues actually modified. I’ve seen copies of horrific emails and images of issues painted on the partitions of campus buildings that make me shiver. I do know quite a lot of males who’re a lot larger than you and ladies who’re even smaller than me who’ve needed to have safety particulars. A former president who went by means of hell instructed me it’s a “life-shortening job.” Clearly, a bunny such as you has been in a position to take a licking and carry on ticking, however are you able to see why they could have stated that? Are presidents simply unwilling to speak in regards to the private toll as a result of it comes throughout as whining about privilege?
EGG: Folks hardly ever see backstage. You’re pushing me to talk frankly now as a result of the presidency, significantly at this second, is so tough. And you might be appropriate that presidents don’t need to be seen as whining or weak. There may be nothing worse than folks sensing blood within the water.
RST: Have you ever gotten loss of life threats?
EGG: Sure, I’ve obtained loss of life threats and a lot hate mail. I’ve persistently refused to have safety. Not that I’m courageous, however I so worth my time with folks unencumbered. Once I would exit to the bars and events, I’d take a few college students with me. Sadly they had been usually as small as me, so we weren’t very formidable. However what I disliked most was the chattering class, which exists in universities to an unhealthy diploma. The good shunning. It impacts you in such ways in which you begin to hibernate and lose confidence. Universities may be among the many most poisonous establishments.
RST: You’ve been eating out on the identical quippy tales for a lot of your profession. I by no means need to hear once more that your aim was to make as a lot cash because the soccer coach. However I do need our readers to learn about among the stuff we discuss—and the issues different presidents inform me in confidence and that they write about anonymously in The Sandbox. You stated you had been keen to get actual. I imply, everybody goes by means of stuff in life. However you will have all the time been hypervisible. You had been appointed president at age 36. Ten years later, your spouse died after a protracted sickness.
EGG: Being in public life along with your partner present process most cancers therapy, which included lengthy stints within the hospital and hospice care, was very tough. I lived on fumes for 3 or 4 years whereas Elizabeth was receiving therapy. I needed to converse to an alumni group in Dayton the night time earlier than she died of most cancers [in 1991]. I ought to have been house at her aspect, which remains to be one thing that haunts me and is unforgivable. After she died, I felt each disappointment and aid. On the identical time, I had a 15-year-old daughter, Rebekah, at house, who was present process critical private challenges, and attempting to bolster her was terribly draining and exhausting.
RST: I’m so sorry, Gordon. I can solely think about what that will need to have been like.
EGG: The ache of loss was profound.
RST: How did you deal with that and nonetheless handle to do your job?
EGG: Truthfully I’m not sure. However I all the time had Rebekah. We adopted her when she was 4 days previous. Her mom and he or she had been fixed companions. After Elizabeth died, I made the choice that Rebekah would go and be with me in every single place. We turned extremely shut.
RST: Throughout your time at Vanderbilt, your second spouse turned a, um, media focus. You went by means of a public and horribly messy divorce. After which a yr later, while you had been again at Ohio State, there was an accident. Rebekah’s husband died and he or she sustained horrible accidents. That will need to have been a horrific time. Demise, divorce and beginning a brand new job are all big stressors in life. You received the Triple Crown.
EGG: On the peak of Elizabeth’s sickness, I instructed her I believed I ought to resign. She was adamant that I not accomplish that, as a result of she felt very strongly that I would by no means forgive her for being the reason for my resignation. And so the considered dropping Rebekah was really extra ache than I might bear. She was and is my greatest good friend. I spent six months together with her in hospitals and rehabilitation. Not one morning would she get up wherever she was with out me being there to inform her how a lot I beloved her. Buddies inside and out of doors the college rallied to our trigger, and I used to be in a position to proceed. I consider if I’d have deserted the presidency on any of these situations, I could have made a greater life, for a second, for Elizabeth and Rebekah, however not for me and finally for our household. However it’s rattling onerous and actually lonely.
RST: I all the time ask presidents, “Who do you actually speak to?” (Don’t go all grammar nerd on me, Gordon, and say it must be “whom.” I’m the English professor. I do know what’s appropriate and I hate “whom.”) Lots of them say their partner, or nobody.
EGG: There are few folks in whom you may confide. Generally the loneliness is insufferable. I did get myself an government coach who has been with me for 35 years, and I like to recommend each president discover such an individual. The query is, do you share these challenges publicly?
RST: The aim of The Sandbox is to make the hidden elements of the job seen and with out concern of reprisal. Final week, after a present president wrote about his psychological well being struggles, I bought a ton of electronic mail from others thanking me for giving him the area to be trustworthy, although he stated he might by no means admit to any of what he wrote along with his title hooked up.
EGG: I believe presidents should be extra public and let folks see them as human. Simple to say at 82, however I believe if I had not all the time been the general public joyful warrior, I could have been more practical.
RST: How so?
EGG: I’ve had so many individuals inform me that I made the presidency look straightforward.
RST: Properly, it certain was quite a bit simpler within the previous days, like earlier than COVID, earlier than George Floyd, earlier than Gaza and earlier than the enormous shit present that began in January 2025. Presidents who’ve been retired for quite a lot of years have to cease telling these nonetheless within the job what to do. And that features you, buddy. I simply warned you that after we Zoom with presidents from totally different establishments, you’re not allowed at hand out management bromides and imprecise recommendation (as you probably did the opposite day). And whereas we now have this platform to bat concepts round, I’m deploying you in methods invisible to the general public so to truly assist those that are nonetheless presidenting. You say you need to be helpful. I’m holding you to that.
EGG: Aye, aye, boss. I’m critical about that and need to pay it ahead.
RST: Happily, we now have me to maintain you trustworthy. You additionally made the presidency look enjoyable.
EGG: I made it look enjoyable as a result of I had fun. I get so irritated with presidents who complain repeatedly in regards to the issue of their work. If it’s so rattling onerous and so debilitating, then stop! For me, enjoyable was all the time a part of the equation. A lot in order that I used to be typically criticized, as a result of many individuals thought it was unpresidential. I believe on reflection it could have been higher to humanize my work. The unforgiving nature of the job is overwhelming. As I’ve left establishments, the sudden invectives are debilitating. Folks instantly cease waving at you with all their fingers and each downside on the college was due to you.
RST: I promise by no means to boost a center finger at you. Except you comply with by means of in your menace to mail me stale bow-tie cookies.
EGG: In my work, you may measure the true associates that you’ve got as a result of they will slot in a phone sales space. As I’ve moved on I’ve typically discovered that your greatest “associates” had been the primary to throw you below the bus. That’s the actuality of the human situation. That stated, the buddies I’ve within the phone sales space are really particular.
RST: I’m sufficiently small to squeeze into that sales space, I hope. Because you got here to me and I’ve sufficient present presidents in my circle to do my job (getting them to put in writing anonymously), I would like nothing from you and am happy to give you a friendship of equals. So long as you do every thing I say and reply to me instantly. It’s sort of like being an worker, Grasshopper. It is a probability so that you can construct a brand new talent set.
EGG: What’s it about you that makes folks belief you and in my occasion publicly open my kimono? This was a cathartic dialogue. Thanks, boss.
RST: Ugh. May have carried out with out that visible picture. I do know it’s onerous to drop the optimistic pose however respect that you simply’re keen to get actual. Proof that previous canine can study new shit.
EGG: I choose new tips. Now on to resistance to alter.
