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On this episode of The David Frum Present, David discusses how the Trump administration is in for a stark actuality examine on account of its commerce insurance policies. David additionally debunks the claims of a painless financial transition promised by President Donald Trump and makes the purpose that the administration just isn’t solely bluffing and mismanaging fiscal and commerce insurance policies, but in addition deceptive the general public with guarantees of straightforward success.
Then, David is joined by the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, to debate Canadians’ reactions to the sudden financial and rhetorical assaults from their once-trusted American neighbors.
After the interview, David solutions listener questions concerning the Trump base, the media strategies of fascists, and the hidden reward of Trumpism.
The next is a transcript of the episode:
David Frum: Hiya, and welcome again to The David Frum Present. I’m David Frum, a employees author at The Atlantic, and I’m grateful that you’d be a part of us once more this second week of this system.
This week, my visitor will probably be Ontario Premier Doug Ford. Now, I ought to clarify, if anybody doesn’t comprehend it: I, too, am a Canadian and an Ontarian by beginning, and I nonetheless spend loads of time there.
I’m going to be talking to the premier concerning the sense of shock and dismay that Canadians have felt about Donald Trump’s threats, not solely to the commerce association between Canada and america, however his calls for that Canada be annexed to america.
You realize, the Trump folks, after they’re attempting to justify the financial coverage that despatched world monetary markets into such chaos over the previous weeks, they attempt to current this as some type of confrontation with China alone, as a result of they don’t prefer to admit to People that they’re waging a commerce warfare towards the whole planet. This isn’t an anti-China marketing campaign; that is an anti-everybody marketing campaign. And it’s a marketing campaign by which America has virtually actually no allies, besides possibly El Salvador.
The commerce warfare started with assaults on Canada, supposedly and traditionally America’s closest neighbor and ally. You’d assume should you had been attempting to construct an anti-China coalition, you’ll begin by consolidating the North American heartland, particularly the U.S.-Canada relationship. That’s precisely the alternative of what has occurred.
I’ll be speaking to the premier about that, how Canadians really feel about it—not a lot the information and figures of the connection, huge as it’s, however what it has been like for Canadians to be on the receiving finish of threats of annexation, threats of violence, and this unrelenting marketing campaign of tariffs and harassment, which has not been paused. The tariffs towards China paused and unpaused. However these towards Canada have remained constantly in place from the very starting of the Trump administration. It’s weird. It’s stunning. It’s upsetting. And that’s what we’re going to speak about this week on The David Frum Present.
After the interview, I will probably be discussing and answering some reader questions. However first, some opening ideas on the occasions of the previous week.
[Music]
Frum: When Donald Trump and people round him need to demean or dismiss some opponent, some critic, they often use the phrase, He doesn’t have the playing cards. They’ve stated that about Volodymyr Zelensky and the Ukrainian folks’s resistance to Russian aggression. They’ve stated it about Canada and different buying and selling companions.
The implication is that the opposite individual is just too weak, too insignificant to be bothered to be worthy of respect. However there’s one other implication, too, which is that america and the Trump administration does have the playing cards, is so mighty and fearsome that others should give means.
Now, america is clearly a really highly effective nation with loads of sources of command and management. However it is very important perceive that, actually, Donald Trump doesn’t have the playing cards that he thinks he does, and that’s one of many causes that this marketing campaign of financial aggression he’s launched—not towards China however towards the entire planet, each nation nearly, virtually each buying and selling nation—is coming amiss and can doubtless finish in failure, and even catastrophe.
Let’s simply take Donald Trump severely for a second. He doesn’t deserve it, however let’s simply, for our personal sakes, do it: supposing a president of america got here to workplace and stated, You realize what? My prime precedence goes to be reshoring manufacturing in america. I personally don’t agree that this ought to be anyone’s prime precedence, however let’s suppose it had been a president’s prime precedence: reshoring manufacturing. That’s what Donald Trump says he needs to do. How would you go about it?
Properly, first you admit to your self, if to nobody else, that you’re proposing a really bold and costly process, one that may contain loads of dislocation. So that you’d withstand that. You’d attempt to construct some type of political consensus in favor of the bumpy, troublesome path you had been proposing for the nation. You’d maximize your mates at dwelling. You’d attain out to different events. You wouldn’t behave in an smug means that had lots of people hoping to your failure, and you wouldn’t begin committing all types of different offenses—and even crimes—that put you in all types of precarious positions, the place something went mistaken, and your complete program would come a cropper.
You’d perceive you had been doing one thing that was not straightforward, was not going to be quick, was going to be expensive, was going to impose important hardship on many individuals. You’d work with allies. You’d construct a big coalition as a result of even when as you’re shrinking your provide chains to maneuver issues away from China, you’re nonetheless going to want numerous sorts of inputs from different international locations—uncooked supplies, if nothing else. And also you’d need to ensure that as many international locations as attainable had been sympathetic to what you had been doing, moderately than wishing that you’d fail and fearing your aggression. You definitely wouldn’t open campaigns of territorial aggression towards neighbors and allies. You wouldn’t say, We’re going to annex Greenland from Denmark, and we’re going to attempt to conquer Canada and make it a 51st state. You wouldn’t do any of these issues.
You’d additionally perceive the connection between your monetary program and your financial program. Now, it is a little technical, but it surely’s actually vital to understand. The explanation america has such a giant commerce deficit is strictly and exactly as a result of america imports a lot capital from different international locations. The present account and the capital account—to provide them their technical names—have to maneuver collectively.
So one motive america has had such an growth of its commerce deficit lately is, first, that america is importing a lot capital within the type of non-public funding. Individuals are shopping for into American corporations, which is an effective factor. But it surely’s additionally as a result of america has run large finances deficits. So foreigners purchase loads of American debt as a result of there’s loads of American debt to purchase.
A primary step—and an indispensable step—in the direction of shrinking your commerce deficit is to shrink your finances deficit. So you’ll have a fiscal plan that labored in parallel to your commerce plan, your financial plan, whereas as an alternative of, as Donald Trump has carried out, precisely the alternative. His plan is to make the deficit larger on a fantasy that with sufficient tariffs, he could make the commerce deficit smaller. And that’s not going to work.
You’d stage with folks. You wouldn’t promise folks fast and simple success. The hardships which have come, and are to return, are going to reach and are arriving as a complete shock to People. They had been promised that this was going to be fast and simple. Folks within the Trump administration are nonetheless promising that the inventory market will go up any day quickly, not understanding: You realize what? Reshoring all this manufacturing, it’s going to dislocate loads of preparations. A whole lot of companies are going to shut. Lots of people are going to lose their jobs.
Perhaps they’ll discover new ones. Conceivably—I don’t consider it, however conceivably—the brand new ones will probably be higher paid. In all probability not. However should you assume it’s form of extra manly for People to work with their palms in factories than to work in places of work or in service jobs, should you assume that that’s going to fortify the character of the nation and the financial sacrifice is price it, don’t go promising those who they’re going to be higher off, as a result of it’s not true. And they’re going to discover, and they are going to be mad, and they’re going to discover quickly.
Don’t additionally say that your aim right here is the strengthening of the American household. One of many issues we find out about households is they have an inclination to return aside in instances of financial misery, particularly the non-college educated. Throughout a recession, charges of divorce go up; charges of childbirth go down. If these are your prime priorities, perceive that they battle with the opposite prime precedence of reorganizing the whole American financial system.
Don’t additionally make loads of appeals to freedom, as a result of a top-down reorganization of the American financial system is many issues, however a free-market undertaking it isn’t. It’s an act of state management, of state assertion, of central planning. Somebody has grimly joked of central planning with out a plan. However there’s a notion, there’s an idea that the folks on the prime—the folks with authority—assume {that a} sure means of organizing the financial system could be higher than different methods, they usually’re going to make use of the facility of the state to implement their imaginative and prescient.
So you need to drop all this speak about financial freedom, as a result of that’s not what we’re doing. Financial freedom belongs to those that are free merchants. With the reorientation of the financial system towards manufacturing, you’re committing to the tariff regime, which is very intrusive. You’re committing to in all probability numerous sorts of retraining applications. You’re committing to state subsidies to, at a minimal, to purchase off the farmers, however state subsidies in different industries too.
And finally, should you’re not going to have a shrunken finances deficit and also you’re going to do the tariffs and also you’re going to attempt to reshore manufacturing, eventually, you’re going to find your self needing some type of capital or trade management to regulate the move of cash out and in of your nation.
So it is a huge, old school, wartime-economy undertaking, under no circumstances a free-market one. And also you’d higher acknowledge that to your self. As an alternative, what has occurred is that Trump has introduced this in a means that’s so false, so misleading, that the story goes to unravel sooner than he can ship any conceivable profit. By no means thoughts internet profit—any profit in any respect.
So what he’s going to find is he’s doing this all with bluff. He doesn’t have the playing cards. His promise of straightforward, low-cost success, properly, it comes naturally to him as a result of he’s type of a flimflam artist, and all his life, he has bilked individuals who have trusted him. On this case, he’s attempting to bilk a complete nation.
I don’t fear about this, as a result of, as I say, I don’t want any of this undertaking properly. I believe the entire undertaking is ill-conceived, even when it had been an trustworthy undertaking. And it’s not trustworthy. However I believe he has begun this undertaking by mendacity even to himself about how straightforward it’s going to be, how briskly it’s going to be, how remunerative it’s going to be. And I believe what all of us odor coming from this administration within the gentle of the unraveling of self-deception is the odor of panic.
And that is the entire thing. That is the factor. I believe that the entire world—and particularly the Chinese language, who’re supposedly the targets of the Trump program—are smelling panic. They’re smelling worry. They’re smelling imminent defeat.
You realize, america was offered this undertaking as a means of reaffirming American energy and greatness. Actually, what we’re witnessing is not only a disaster of the American financial system however a disaster of American energy. Every kind of different sources of the American state—the nice title, the credibility, the alliance system—all this stuff are additionally in peril proper now. And we’re going to discover ourselves, on the finish of this Trump program, which can be coming sooner than anybody believes—this complete factor might collapse fairly shortly—however when it does collapse, it’s going to be exhausting to place collectively a second plan. It’s going to be exhausting to influence international locations which were focused by the tariffs, the international locations which were threatened with aggression, the international locations which were deserted that america has repented and can do higher.
And I’m not considering right here nearly shut American mates however a couple of nation like Vietnam, which is a historic enemy of China—which welcomed the opening of an financial tie to america as a option to each enrich themselves and in addition to provide them some leverage towards their highly effective neighbor. They’re now considering, As nasty because the Chinese language are, they could be extra dependable. And we’re seeing a revival of high-level visits between Vietnam and China in a means that’s going to be very exhausting to undo.
Authoritarian states like Vietnam have loads of coverage continuity. As soon as they choose one thing—it comes out of a giant bureaucratic means of choice, however as soon as they choose it—that turns into the plan. And in the event that they’ve grow to be satisfied that america below Donald Trump—that america, typically—just isn’t a dependable accomplice, that’s not one thing they’re going to alter their thoughts about when america says, Oops. Sorry it didn’t work out. We didn’t hit the Dow 50,000 goal that Peter Navarro promised. We’re rethinking this. We’re going to attempt one thing else. We’ve obtained to pause. We’ve obtained an unpause, then we’re pausing once more and unpausing once more. By all of this, america goes to seek out itself in worse and worse form.
And now my interview with Ontario Premier Doug Ford. After that, I’ll be answering questions from viewers and listeners. Please bear in mind to love and subscribe to The David Frum Present.
However first a fast break.
[Break]
Frum: Premier Ford, welcome.
Doug Ford: Properly, thanks for having me on, David.
Frum: I ought to point out I used to be born in Ontario. I’ve a home in Ontario. I pay property taxes in Ontario, however I don’t vote in Ontario, so that you get the very best of all attainable worlds from me.
Ford: (Laughs.) Properly, that’s nice. I can’t stand taxes. By no means raised a tax ever.
Frum: That is the place I need to begin. So that you’ve been working very exhausting on American tv—
Ford: Sure.
Frum: —speaking concerning the relationship between Canada and america, between Ontario and the neighboring states, the information, the figures, the large measurement of this relationship. I need to transfer away from that meat-and-potatoes, facts-and-figures strategy to ask a form of query I believe People might not perceive and would respect your perception into.
A whole lot of People, even the people who find themselves not sympathetic to what President Trump is doing, deal with his feedback about Canada as type of a joke: Annexing the 51st state—it’s a troll. It’s a joke. I don’t assume they perceive the impression that that is having, that this sort of speak has on Canadians. So might you simply [say], as somebody who comes from a right-of-center background—not a tax raiser, not a big-government man—as somebody who comes from the identical a part of the world, mainly, because the Trump voters come from, how all of this lands when Canadians and Ontarians hear it?
Ford: Properly, what it’s, David, we’ve all the time thought ourselves a part of the household, and it’s been that means for, oh, generations. And I believe folks had been shocked. They had been disenchanted—if I might say the phrase harm—as a result of Canadians love People. They completely love them. They spend loads of time within the U.S. And People love Canadians. I’ve talked to so many hardcore Trump supporters who’re saying, Yeah, I’d do something for Trump, however I don’t like the way in which he’s treating our—one man stated—little brother. And that’s the way in which we glance upon it too.
I spent 20 years of my life within the U.S., and I really like the U.S. I really like the American folks. I traveled fairly properly to virtually each state quite a few instances, and I simply consider we’re stronger collectively. I consider within the “Am-Can fortress,” the American-Canadian fortress. Put a hoop round it. Nobody can contact us.
We have now all of the pure sources, the power, all the things that the U.S. wants, and we’d like the U.S. We’re the No. 1 buyer, as I name it. We’re their No. 1 buyer, so vice versa. And we simply have to work collectively. The risk just isn’t Canada; it’s China. You need to regulate China. I’ve been saying it for years now, and it’s coming to fruition.
Frum: I believe one of many issues that baffles lots of people within the Canadian enterprise group particularly is: It’s a posh relationship. There are all the time chafing factors. Everyone understands that lumber, dairy—there have been points that return a very long time. What I hear from folks within the enterprise world is that Trump folks aren’t saying something you’ll be able to even say sure to. The grievances appear so imaginary. Everybody is aware of the medicine don’t move from Canada to america. They move from america to Canada. The weapons move from america to Canada. Flows of producers go from america to Canada. Canada sends power, and there’s a commerce back-and-forth in providers. In order that they don’t hear it. Like, even when they needed to say sure, they will’t, as a result of the grievances don’t appear actual.
Ford: Properly, that’s as a result of they aren’t actual. It’s very, quite simple. And, you already know, it’s the uncertainty that President Trump has put not simply on Canada, on the whole world. You realize, I all the time say you need to take a web page out of Ronald Reagan’s e-book again in 1988, on the free-trade deal. And, you already know, protectionism doesn’t work. It doesn’t work wherever on the planet. It gained’t work between Canada and the U.S. The availability chain is so built-in.
Everybody’s heard concerning the auto elements going forwards and backwards six, seven, eight instances earlier than they get assembled in a plant in Ontario or a plant within the U.S., be it Michigan or another auto plant. I all the time say—you already know, the Auto Pact’s been round since 1965—and you’ll’t unscramble an egg. You need to make the omelet bigger. And that’s the auto sector. However there are such a lot of different sectors that the availability chain is so built-in. You simply can’t flip on a swap and switch it off.
Frum: Properly, you talked about the Auto Pact. I believe loads of People don’t perceive after they hear President Trump say and his surrogates say, We wish Canada to signal some nice new commerce deal, that Canadian-U.S. commerce has been wrapped in offers. They return to the Nineteen Fifties for protection, to the Nineteen Sixties for autos, the primary Canada-U.S. Free Commerce Settlement to the ’80s, NAFTA replace within the ’90s, the Trump model of NAFTA within the 2010s.
And what Trump has been doing is saying, All these signatures don’t imply something. We wish one other set of signatures. And one of many questions I believe you should have and Canadians will need to have is, properly, if the final set of signatures don’t imply something, why would you like new signatures?
Ford: And that’s what folks have been saying, David. You realize, President Trump made the final deal. I used to be a part of that take care of Secretary [Robert] Lighthizer. And President Trump stated it was the best deal ever. I suppose it’s not the best deal ever anymore. So I’m not too positive what he needs to do or the place he needs to go, however we’re simply stronger collectively. With all of the threats world wide, we have to stick collectively.
When China’s chopping the U.S. off of essential minerals for his or her army use, we’ve all of the essential minerals. Ontario has extra essential minerals than wherever on the planet. We need to ship them all the way down to our closest good friend and ally to assist them. As an illustration, nickel: 50 p.c of the high-grade nickel the U.S. makes use of comes from Sudbury. And I emphasize high-grade nickel. There’s a distinction. They use it of their army, use it of their aerospace, of their manufacturing. To not point out the aluminum and the metal and different essential minerals that I might checklist. And who higher to provide it to than our closest mates?
Frum: I perceive you usually speak to Secretary of Commerce [Howard] Lutnick. What are these conversations like, with out asking you to say something you shouldn’t say? Does he place the decision? Do you place the decision? How do you greet one another? Is it cordial? What occurs on these calls?
Ford: Properly, it’s all the time cordial. He’s a really, very vibrant particular person. He understands the markets, and that’s why it’s mind-boggling to so many individuals, elected officers, private-sector people. He’s a wise man, and the market’s talking. And if you see the market tumbling, it’s not about Wall Avenue dropping cash; it’s about Important Avenue dropping cash.
The mother and pops which can be on the market which have cash in pension funds—and we’ve loads of pension funds in Toronto, in all probability one of many largest group of pension funds—they make investments all over the place on the planet, they usually make investments closely into the U.S. So when their pension fund drops $2 billion or $3 billion over a three-day interval, that’s regarding.
It’s regarding to those who need to make investments world wide. They put that on maintain. We’re going to see inflation if you’re focusing on tariffs—which, by the way in which, I assist all of the tariffs towards China, however there’s a means of dealing with it.
Frum: Do you ever inform Secretary Lutnick that he might make all people billions and billions of {dollars} if he might simply maintain his yap shut for 48 hours?
Ford: (Laughs.) Properly, I by no means get private with the president, by no means get private with the secretary. However I’m not too positive in the event that they notice the impression on the whole world when one man speaks; it might probably shift all the things. In order that they must be cognitive of each phrase that comes out of their mouth. It’s simply so, so vital for the U.S., for the residents, to ensure that we proceed thriving and prospering. And that’s what would occur if we made this Am-Can fortress.
Frum: Are you able to speak a little bit bit concerning the 51st-state troll?
Ford: Sure.
Frum: As a result of Canada and america have a relationship that’s so built-in, all the things from migratory birds and the Nice Lakes. And vehicles break down on the bridges, and in the event that they break down on this a part of the bridge, it’s an American site visitors downside. In the event that they break down on this a part of the bridge, it’s a Canadian site visitors downside. Police coordination. Your relationship together with your counterparts in Lansing and Albany; you in all probability work with them each single day. And but they’re two international locations with completely different cultures and histories. Discuss a little bit bit about the way it feels to Canadians when People say, Your nation doesn’t matter, despite the fact that we’ve this nice cooperative relationship.
Ford: Properly, what I did say to Secretary Lutnick, and I’ll say it publicly: The distinction between People proper now—and I’ve an incredible quantity of mates and contacts within the U.S.—they’re simply type of happening their means. They’ve woken up a little bit bit over the previous few weeks. However 40 million Canadians are at a fever pitch proper now. They’re keen to sacrifice. They’re patriotic, like patriotism I’ve by no means seen. We all the time say how Canadians are so well mannered. Properly, they’re at a fever pitch proper now and keen to do something and sacrifice something to guard their sovereignty. And so they’re passionate. Once more, I’ve by no means seen the patriotism like I’ve seen over the previous few months.
Frum: You simply gained an election on these points.
Ford: Sure.
Frum: And there’s now one other election on the federal stage being fought, the place the Trump concern is central.
Ford: Sure.
Frum: Do you assume that the Trump folks perceive that they’re remaking Canadian politics in ways in which might shock them, in methods probably they could not like, due to their blundering interventions into Canadian life?
Ford: I believe they’re taking part in a big impact on Canadian politics. They performed a big impact on my election as working for a 3rd mandate, and I talked concerning the tariffs. That was crucial concern on all our polling. Tariffs had been No. 1 as a result of that impacts their lives. You realize, I all the time say, the inspiration of our health-care system, schooling, our infrastructure, our enterprise—the inspiration is your financial system. That’s what retains all the things going. And when there’s an assault in your financial system, that impacts each different sector right here in Canada, but it surely additionally impacts each sector within the U.S. as properly.
Frum: Let me finish by asking you about the way in which ahead, the way in which again to normality. Prime Minister [Mark] Carney, who might or will not be prime minister subsequent month, he faces an election on the finish of April. Prime Minister Carney is form of an interim prime minister. He stated nothing will ever be the identical, and proper now it is vitally exhausting to see a means again to regular. Do you see a means again? What would that seem like, ranging from the place we’re, with the extreme feeling in Canada towards what has been stated about Canada?
Ford: Properly, I all the time take a look at the glass being half full. I believe there’s a possibility to drop these tariffs, construct on our strengths. We may be the 2 strongest, wealthiest, most affluent international locations on the planet. If we get the [Keystone] XL pipeline, begin heading south. We have to construct pipelines east, west, and north as properly. We have to ensure that we get the essential minerals out of the bottom and promote them to our mates south of the border. And in the event that they’re at capability, then we ship them world wide to our allies, not our foes. We need to ship them to our mates and make Canada stronger and make the U.S. stronger and safer. That’s what we have to do. And we’re client gluttons in Canada. We hit means above our weight for 40 million folks.
Frum: Let me focus that query about the way in which again a little bit bit extra. In our earlier lives, I believe we will each bear in mind a time when Canada was a way more state-dominated financial system, far more protectionist. There was a government-owned oil firm, government-owned different providers in locations the federal government had no enterprise being. There was loads of distrust of American funding. There was overseas investment-review acts. We bear in mind the primary Trudeau authorities’s national-energy coverage, the place they tried to create a type of remoted Canadian power market.
You realize, from the ’60s to the ’80s, Canada was an inward-looking, isolationist, protectionist, state-dominated financial system, in a means that modified within the Eighties with the free-trade settlement, the Mulroney authorities, and governments like yours, Ralph Klein in Alberta. Prime Minister Carney typically appears like he’s speaking about returning to that outdated means, the place there could be a made-in-Canada automotive, and that the value of Trump to Canada is not only what he’s doing to Canada however the way in which he’s altering Canada to make Canada extra inward.
Do you are worried about that? Do you assume that’s a resistible pattern? Do you assume that’s a combat that may be gained within the face of the type of stress on Canada at this time?
Ford: Properly, David, I completely disagree with that, something to do with protectionism. Do I consider in onshoring? I’ll offer you a pair examples.
Aluminum cans: 65 p.c of the aluminum the U.S. wants comes from Quebec. So we ship down the aluminum. The 2 huge breweries and the 2 huge beverage corporations, they print it, convert it, and ship it again up. They get hit 25 p.c on the way in which down, 25 p.c on the way in which again. It drives up the price to the patron. And I’ve to ask, there’s a billion-dollar trade. Why are we not making cans right here in Ontario? That’s one space.
I discovered the opposite day, we’ve three huge metal crops—Stelco, Dofasco, and Algoma—and we don’t make metal beams right here. And we’ve extra cranes within the sky in Toronto than New York, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, L.A., they usually even threw in Honolulu mixed. So we have to construct metal beams.
The final one, I’ll offer you an instance. We ship wheat all the way down to the U.S., they usually make cereal. I discovered that we don’t also have a cereal producer right here. We used to have Kellogg. However these are easy areas that I consider in onshoring to ensure that we’ve a provide of cans at a decrease—
Frum: American spaghetti is all created from Canadian wheat, or virtually all.
Ford: Yeah, that’s proper. Yeah. After which among the packaging and spaghetti comes as much as Canada, which I’ve no downside with.
It was like [during] the pandemic, when President Trump minimize us off from the N95 masks, properly, we stood up an trade in two months. And we’ll by no means depend on anybody in that space once more. We’re making our personal N95 masks, our robes, all the things else right here. We are able to manufacture something in Canada, completely something.
Frum: You have got your hand on the on-off electrical energy swap flowing south to america?
Ford: Yeah, I need to ship them extra electrical energy. You realize, we’re sharing the expertise of the small modular reactors. We’re leaders within the G7 on the SMRs.
And I simply had Governor [Spencer] Cox right here from Utah, a Republican governor. What a gentleman. The very first thing we did, we introduced them as much as Darlington, the place we’re making the small modular reactors. We’re working with U.S. corporations—Basic Electrical, Tennessee Valley Authority, and Hitachi’s in there as properly—however we’re saying, Right here. We’re going to share this expertise.
They want power, the U.S. We have now the power, we’ve the expertise, and we’re sharing it with them. We have now orders for over $100 billion from Europe for the small modular reactors. And anybody who doesn’t perceive SMR—it may be any measurement, however let’s simply use it as roughly the scale of a Walmart. It might probably energy a city of 400,000 folks. And it’s handy. It’s clear, inexperienced, dependable, inexpensive power. That’s the way in which of the longer term.
Frum: Thanks a lot for making time for us at this time.
Ford: Thanks, David. And I simply need to inform the People, we love you. I really like the People, and should God bless the U.S., and should God bless Canada. And let’s get via this and get this deal carried out.
Frum: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.
[Break]
Frum: Thanks to Premier Doug Ford for that candid, highly effective interview.
As talked about, I additionally dwell in Ontario. I’ve a home there, and I’ve witnessed myself what the premier has described. This surge of harm and dismay and, above all, shock amongst Canadians on the response to Canada within the Trump administration. What did Canada do to deliver all of this hatred and need for annexation on? It’s very puzzling and really upsetting, and Premier Ford has been somebody who’s given highly effective voice to these emotions.
As talked about, we’re going to attempt to experiment with viewer and listener interplay on this program. It’s one thing that has been misplaced on the web—the collapse of remark sections from the early web, the demise of Twitter as any type of helpful platform of trade. I’m going to attempt to restore some interactivity right here. We’ll see the way it goes. Because of everybody who despatched a query. We’ve chosen three. I hope listeners and viewers will ship extra inquiries to producer@thedavidfrumshow.com. And listed below are the three for this week.
The primary comes from Paul within the Bay Space, and he asks, “Do you assume Trump supporters are having purchaser’s regret?”
Now, the Trump base is famously strong, highly effective, even type of threatening. Many in Congress on the Republican facet hesitate to vote their consciences on issues like free commerce, as a result of they’re so scared of what Trump supporters contained in the occasion would possibly do. However elections aren’t misplaced from the bottom. Elections are misplaced on the fringe. Keep in mind: 1932, the Nice Melancholy. People are going hungry. Transient camps on the sting of each American metropolis. Herbert Hoover nonetheless gained 38 p.c of the vote in 1932. You don’t lose your base; that’s why it’s referred to as the bottom. What you lose is the perimeter and the sting. And there are loads of indicators that President Trump is in serious trouble.
Throughout his first time period, his private approval was by no means that nice. People noticed him for what he was, a bully—or possibly not wholly for what he was, however they noticed loads of what he was—a bully, loudmouth, type of a thug. They didn’t prefer it, however they did benefit from the financial system of 2017, 2018, and 2019. They didn’t care whether or not he’d carried out it himself or whether or not he’d inherited it from Barack Obama. These had been good instances, and folks appreciated it till the COVID crash, for which they largely didn’t blame Trump. They noticed that as some exterior occasion that possibly he didn’t handle in addition to he might have, but it surely wasn’t his fault.
Now there’s loads of knowledge that exhibits Trump’s financial numbers are heading south, and that’s earlier than important layoffs have begun. To date, the disaster that Trump began totally on his personal has been a financial-market occasion. And it’s just like the gathering of a storm, not the storm itself. The storm is coming, and if it expresses itself in layoffs, in dwelling foreclosures, I believe you’ll see a giant response to that.
You already hear nervousness from Republican members of Congress concerning the 2026 elections. If these elections are allowed to proceed in a free and honest means—which is, sadly, not the understanding that it should be—I believe there’s going to be a worth to pay for the errors of the previous months and the additional errors that appear to be coming.
So I don’t know that you simply’ll ever get, Paul, the type of response from the pro-Trump talkers on many platforms to say, We lied to you. We knew we had been mendacity. The entire thing was a catastrophe. We’re so sorry. We need to make some type of repentance. I don’t assume these people are ever going to apologize in the way in which that maybe you’d want. However will there be sufficient cracks within the Trump coalition to weaken the place of the Trump presidency resulting in the midterms? And can there be some type of correction within the midterms in the event that they’re allowed to occur? I believe the reply to that’s fairly strongly sure.
A query from Hans. In final week’s program, I made a reference to the way in which by which the far proper of at this time has grow to be a really adept person of latest social media. And Hans requested, “I’ve been considering for years that there was a comparability to be made between fascist authoritarian use of radio and movie within the Nineteen Twenties and Nineteen Thirties, and the precise’s use of social media at this time.” And he needed me to develop this thought some extra.
It’s a giant mistake to imagine that simply because folks have reactionary social views, that they are going to essentially be backward of their use of expertise. Actually, fairly the opposite, actually because they’re so alienated from the society of the current, they’re searching in all types of unlooked-for locations in ways in which people who find themselves extra happy with society don’t.
For instance, cable TV has, clearly, viewers issues, and that’s a much-discussed truth. One of many issues that the brand new media have found is there’s a large, untapped viewers for conspiratorial anti-Semitism, and individuals who communicate to this could construct large on-line followings. Lots of the most profitable podcasters of at this time have found conspiratorial anti-Semitism as an important useful resource, they usually’re constructing audiences bigger than CNN, MSNBC, even Fox.
Why? Cable information is a bit more old school that means, thank goodness, and is saying, You realize, despite the fact that there’s a giant revenue to be made, we’re not going there. However new media has stated, We’re on the lookout for each type of new alternative, and if conspiratorial anti-Semitism is the wave of the longer term, that’s for us.
And so that you see this flourishing of the worst type of concepts in essentially the most superior locations on the latest platforms. I believe if we’re going to carry society onto a greater path, if we’re going to carry media and public dialogue onto a greater path, we’re going to must comply with the worst folks in society onto the latest platforms and to speak within the latest methods. And that’s one of many issues I’m attempting to do right here on this platform, to say, You realize what? We are able to use the brand new media and nonetheless say conspiratorial anti-Semitism is for crackpots, cranks, and harsh folks of all other forms.
Query from Michael: “In your e-book Trumpocracy, you highlighted among the hidden items of the Trump presidency. Eight years later, are we any near unwrapping and having fun with the fruits of these items, or are we liable to squandering them eternally?”
So it is a reference to an remark I made in a long-ago e-book about there being potential advantages. One of many issues that could be a reward of Trump, and possibly not a present any of us need, is: Trump’s second time period brings to People the reward of humility. I believe loads of People have an assumption that issues that occur in different places at different durations in historical past might by no means occur right here. A well-known e-book about American fascism bears the title It Can’t Occur Right here.
I believe Donald Trump is displaying that People belong to the identical human race because the Germans, the Italians, and the Japanese. We’re not particular creatures of God. We’re not resistant to the vices of humanity. America has had, on the entire, a extra lucky historical past than different international locations—not in each means an ideal historical past, however a extra lucky historical past. And so political extremism has tended to not get the acquisition in america than it has in much less lucky international locations.
However there isn’t a innate American immunity to extremism. And there’s no assure that America should keep a democracy eternally. It’s actually as much as all of us, and Donald Trump has taught us that lesson—is educating us that lesson. If we need to maintain what has been nice and good about America, we’re going to must work over the subsequent years the way in which People have seldom labored earlier than of their political historical past.
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Frum: This episode of The David Frum Present was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdez. It was engineered by Dave Grein. Our theme is by Andrew M. Edwards. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
I’m David Frum. Thanks for listening.
