San Francisco has been on the middle of successive waves of technological and cultural change — from the literal Gold Rush days to the present gold rush-like AI growth. Dream Machines hosts Alexis Madrigal and Robin Sloan speak to writer, longtime San Francisco resident, and “chronicler of different minds” Annalee Newitz concerning the distinction between this growth and former ones, the pleasures and risks of anthropomorphizing tech instruments, and whether or not or not AI is embodied.
Visitor: Annalee Newitz, journalist and writer of Automated Noodle and different books
Episode Transcript
It is a computer-generated transcript. Whereas our crew has reviewed it, there could also be errors.
Annalee Newitz (00:00):
What if it seems language is simply form of nothing huge? What if it’s similar to, oh, the rationale why LLMs can do that so simply is as a result of it seems language isn’t any huge deal. And it’s truly not what makes us cool. What makes us cool is one thing else. As a result of take into consideration how bullshit written language actually is. As any individual who I write loads –
Robin Sloan (00:19):
Maintain on. McMillan, we’ve a brand new strap line to print throughout the entrance of all of Annalee Newitz’s novels.
Alexis Madrigal (00:27):
I’m Alexis Madrigal.
Robin Sloan (00:30):
I’m Robin Sloan.
Alexis Madrigal (00:31):
And that is KQED’s Dream Machines.
Robin Sloan (00:34):
A podcast about AI, the way it works, what it means. The way it feels. Yeah, the way it feels. And importantly, it’s rooted right here in San Francisco.
Alexis Madrigal (00:45):
So after all, first episode of Dream Machines, we’re speaking about how AI took root right here in San Francisco, Anthropic, OpenAI, and like 400 million different firms between right here and Hayes Valley. The dream of San Francisco and the broader Bay Space because the place that’s this unimaginable mechanism for bringing these audacious desires ahead, whether or not or not you form of need them to, whether or not or not you suppose they’re a good suggestion or a foul concept, simply incontrovertibly going again in time, that is the place. Semiconductors right through the PC, all of the totally different elements of the PC are taking place right here. The web, after all, social media, the good horrors of social media, in addition to all of the Uber for all the things firms. Every considered one of this stuff has these roots on this space. And it’s a type of occasions the place you’re like, was it simply the gold rush?
(01:39):
Did the gold rush by some means imbue some magic mud?
Robin Sloan (01:42):
So for our first dialog, we wished to search out the final word
Alexis Madrigal (01:47):
San
Robin Sloan (01:48):
Franciscan.
Alexis Madrigal (01:48):
The avatar
Robin Sloan (01:50):
Of
Alexis Madrigal (01:50):
San Francisco. Who
Robin Sloan (01:51):
Can converse? Who can talk about this place in the long term? And throughout all these dimensions we’re speaking about, cultural and financial and technical and all the things else. And
Alexis Madrigal (02:00):
That may be Annalee Newitz, after all, a nonfiction author who actually of their nonfiction works on this type of civilizational scale. In fiction too, books like Automated Noodle is creating dream machines. It’s creating these form of different minds. And I do suppose Annalee is a determine that’s simply so San Francisco on this mixture of being tech ahead, being politics ahead, being wild and free alongside dimensions different folks in different areas of nation possibly have by no means even imagined.
Robin Sloan (02:31):
Pondering creatively and critically concerning the future, proper? It’s these two issues collectively.
Alexis Madrigal (02:35):
With out additional ado, right here is our interview with Annalee Newitz, the primary on dream machines. One of many questions that I believe we’ve been asking ourselves is why San Francisco time and again for these booms? I imply, the Bay Space broadly, but in addition San Francisco fairly particularly on this case and positively during the last 20 years, what do you suppose? What do you make of it?
Robin Sloan (02:57):
As a result of it’s straightforward to say, you need to say, oh, it’s a growth city. That’s the character of it. However you’re like, okay, you’ve instructed me nothing. Over all these years, what’s your learn of that tendency, that energy?
Annalee Newitz (03:09):
Yeah, it’s true that this can be a city of growth and bust, however greater than that, it’s a city of booms motivated by engineering breakthroughs. And we’ve all the time had within the Bay Space, if you happen to embrace issues like Silicon Valley within the form of better Bay Space, we’ve all the time had innovators and industrialists coming collectively. And one of many issues I believe that’s so attention-grabbing about San Francisco is that this bizarre alchemy of oftentimes very conservative proto-oligarchs of trade. Whether or not it’s the railway tycoons of the late nineteenth century or folks like Peter Thiel now or Sam Altman now, you might have these people who find themselves simply dumping cash into the financial system and so they’re not within the public good actually. I imply, or they’ve kind of a skinny scrim of look after the general public good. They simply need to become profitable, however they’re dumping that cash right into a metropolis that’s stuffed with radicals and subversives, individuals who’ve been kicked out of each first rate metropolis within the nation.
(04:15):
People who find themselves too queer for his or her households, too leftist for his or her political events. They usually come collectively, they meet that cash, after which one thing fricking bizarre occurs. That’s San Francisco. And I believe that’s why San Francisco has such bizarre politics too. You’d suppose we’d be a metropolis that might be like Arcada up north, that we’d have an all inexperienced metropolis council. We’d be run by socialists. However no, we’re a metropolis the place the socialists by some means are hanging out with these industrialists.
Alexis Madrigal (04:48):
Proper, proper, proper. So Annalee, I do know your origin story and I’ve learn a number of your wired.com articles and different issues and following in your path as soon as I arrived right here. I’m curious, as you might have watched this metropolis change a lot and thru these totally different eras, however notably this type of AI growth, which is like trillion greenback firms immediately implanting into San Francisco, how has that modified town for you? And do you suppose that’s modified the way in which that you just write concerning the metropolis or write about know-how?
Annalee Newitz (05:25):
100% it has. I believe one of many huge variations between the AI growth and say the dot-com growth, which was the flip of the century, is that there’s an actual nihilism to this tech growth. I felt like through the dot-com growth, sure, it was bonkers and there was means an excessive amount of cash, however there was a form of exuberance and delight and silliness to it. Whereas I really feel just like the AI growth is related to politics just like the community state or very regressive kind of Peter Thiel model, let’s return to monarchy sort politics. And so the politics are very reactionary and really anti-democratic. And that has actually shifted my understanding of San Francisco, which I all the time although of as a really anarchic, freewheeling, joyful city that possibly was just a little too wealthy, all the time just a little too wealthy, but in addition form of spent cash freely on intercourse and medicines.
(06:29):
And now I really feel like what I need to mirror in my writing concerning the metropolis is that this darkish flip towards a form of self-denial and anti-hedonism and pro-authoritarianism. And so town is a darker place, however paradoxically, it’s made me need to write happier, cozier, extra pleasant tales about it to encourage folks to recollect, you possibly can have some enjoyable and also you don’t want some huge cash to do it and town might be lovely.
Robin Sloan (07:03):
We’ve talked about this fairly a bit that amongst your many virtues and nice strengths as a author, you might be maybe the foremost chronicler or imaginer of different minds, together with machine minds.
Annalee Newitz (07:17):
It’s actually each.
(07:18):
I undoubtedly received the inspiration. I get the inspiration from my non-human characters from the world round me and from the machines I work together with. And I’m a ruthless anthropomorphizer and I do make enjoyable of myself for this. And I understand that it’s form of a personality flaw, particularly if you happen to write about science. However I can’t assist however see the personhood in all the things, together with machines. Though not a lot in ChatGPT, possibly we’ll speak about that later. We have to get to that. Apparently. However this microphone, I may simply have compassion for this microphone. What number of occasions has it been breathed on? And what’s it occupied with that? Does it have opinions about totally different smells that it encounters? And what’s it going to do about it? So I believe that’s a part of what occurs to me is that I’ll be writing a narrative that’s fact-based and evidence-based.
(08:12):
And part of my mind is like, “Oh, however what if this was alive? What would it not be considering proper now?” As a result of what’s human consciousness, however this skinny little layer round a bunch of simply survival crucial.
Alexis Madrigal (08:26):
Why don’t you briefly arrange the world of Automated Noodle and we’ll use that to form of take into consideration a few of these robots that you just’ve created.
Annalee Newitz (08:33):
Yeah. It’s the primary guide I’ve ever written that was set in San Francisco. And it’s about what occurs in California after the state has received a conflict of independence in opposition to the US. So it’s set 5 years after the conflict has been received. So issues are being rebuilt and resettled. And one of many issues that’s occurred within the wake of the conflict is that a number of the robots who had been used within the preventing have been given restricted civil rights within the nation of California. And that’s partly as a result of the nation of California thinks of itself as very futuristic and desires to form of be the primary nation that joins the UN having these sorts of rights for sentient AI. But additionally it’s as a result of it’s form of plain that a few of these robots are folks. And so my primary characters are 4 robots who’ve these restricted rights.
(09:25):
They’re free to work, however to not personal property. They’re free to affiliate with one another, however not type unions. And they also’re fighting a number of the identical issues that many individuals within the states have struggled with and now within the nation of California. In order that they resolve by form of skirting the legal guidelines that they are going to open a noodle restaurant to outlive. And the guide is absolutely about them studying to get together with their human neighbors, deal with robophobia, and form of discover a dwelling collectively within the new San Francisco. I simply began writing the sequel.
Alexis Madrigal (10:03):
Oh.
Annalee Newitz (10:03):
Yeah. So that you’re going to search out out loads about California politics within the sequel. It’s going
Robin Sloan (10:08):
To be one other kind of slim.
Annalee Newitz (10:09):
Yeah, it’s going to be one other novella. So it’s referred to as Noodle Union. So that provides you a touch of what I is perhaps considering.
Robin Sloan (10:18):
I imply, there’s so some ways we are able to get into this, however I might say primarily first as a author, as somebody who’s occupied with minds and voices and characters, do you take a look at this new creature earlier than us with curiosity, with curiosity? Are you able to think about a language mannequin on the pages of an Annalee novel or simply how does all of it strike you?
Annalee Newitz (10:40):
I’m tremendous inquisitive about it. I’m very inquisitive about people’ reactions to it as properly and seeing what number of different anthropomorphizers are on the market. And individuals are feeling anxious about whether or not these are those that we’re constructing, whether or not they’re simply instruments that may destroy our lives as folks. What can we do with them ethically? I believe all of that stuff is tremendous attention-grabbing. And I’m glad we’re occupied with it, although I’m not satisfied that the LLMs we’ve now are folks. We completely must be occupied with what the heck occurs if it seems that they’re. As a result of as I’ve mentioned many occasions, the enterprise mannequin of most of those LLM firms is to construct folks after which purchase and promote them. So we’re making an attempt to reinvent slavery. Nicely, we aren’t, however captains of trade are. They love slavery. Oh, these guys are so loopy about it.
(11:34):
However what I might say is that if you’re occupied with LLMs otherwise you’re occupied with AI, what we’re calling AI extra broadly, they do have our bodies. We consider them as disembodied, however right here we’re in the course of big debates over knowledge facilities. Information facilities are the our bodies of those creatures, of those packages and algorithms and fashions. So it’s very late capitalism to have one thing whose physique is distant and might’t be seen. And you then’re interacting with it as one thing that seems to be out of skinny air.
Alexis Madrigal (12:11):
A shiny, pleasant, chirpy presence.
Annalee Newitz (12:13):
Proper. Proper. And the entire secondary results that that factor is having on folks’s lives and the setting is some place else, often someplace that could be a haven’t state or a haven’t area. And so it’s very colonial. And many individuals have written about this, concerning the form of colonial mannequin of AI. And so I’m all the time thinking about reminding folks all of these items is embodied. There’s no such factor as an AI that’s like right here within the air floating round as my first boss on the Bay Guardian mentioned like, oh, the web, it’s within the air. No, it’s truly not, dude. It’s in a server type.
Robin Sloan (12:51):
Proper although. Besides that the factor itself, the voice, no matter it’s, in a way, I might argue it doesn’t care that it’s within the knowledge middle. It issues loads that it’s, however it doesn’t care. What it cares is that it’s in language. I imply, it’s terrain, it’s panorama. If you happen to consider the robots of your novel, they’re mountaineering up hills and skating down the opposite aspect. The panorama, the literal setting of all these language fashions is language itself. And naturally
Annalee Newitz (13:22):
The – Is
Robin Sloan (13:22):
It although? It completely is. And the –
Annalee Newitz (13:25):
Don’t you suppose its panorama is circuitry and the wires it travels by and the ether that it travels by that it’s a part of a radio wave and it’s a part of {an electrical} present. It has a bodily embodiment. Cease denying that it has a physique
Robin Sloan (13:40):
Robin. I shouldn’t have higher than attempt to outplay Analynus. It’s only a regular bodily physique just like the huge micorrhisal mat that connects all bushes within the forest. Thank
Annalee Newitz (13:52):
You. See, you perceive.
Robin Sloan (13:53):
Outplay it once more.
Annalee Newitz (13:54):
Hear, you’re the one which wrote about sentient sourdough bread, so that you began it.
Robin Sloan (14:00):
Honest sufficient. Do you suppose that this growth that’s been pushed by this know-how, do you suppose it’s totally different in scale or kinder character from the San Francisco booms earlier than? Do you suppose it’s form of simply of a bit or how does it strike you as a longtime
Annalee Newitz (14:16):
Chronicler? Yeah, that’s a very good query. I believe it’s the identical. So if it’s gold, if it’s microchips, if it’s fashions, LLMs, it’s all form of the identical factor as a result of what finally ends up taking place right here in San Francisco is we get simply loopy funding and large ranges of funding. I believe $200 billion have been spent investing in AI in San Francisco alone during the last six years. It’s
Alexis Madrigal (14:44):
Like half the cash that’s gone into it on this planet.
Annalee Newitz (14:47):
Yeah. Think about if we put even a part of that cash into say, I don’t know, public transit or a sensible grid, which truly is AI. A sensible grid is AI. Why don’t we spend money on that? So I believe that’s the half that’s very San Francisco. We’re simply going to place billions and billions of {dollars} into this factor that we don’t actually know what it’s. It’s like a tulip or possibly it’s gold or possibly it’s another factor. Yeah, it’s undoubtedly in character for this metropolis.
Alexis Madrigal (15:16):
I’ve to say I discover it just a little extra thrilling than the couple earlier booms. The form of Uber for all the things growth was actually form of unhappy in a labor exploitation hustle form of scenario. After which earlier than that you just had social media, which Rob and I’ve talked about as being possibly one of many nice oxbow lakes in technological historical past. Finally folks will transfer on in some essential methods. In actual fact, they form of have already got, not less than from that form of Mark Zuckerberg social community form of sense of social media.That’s gone for most individuals now. And but San Francisco was the center and soul of that and the Bay Space.
(15:55):
This one, I assume I discover it attention-grabbing as a result of I’m actually each in language and consciousness. And it appears to be simply driving stakes by form of cherished concepts that possibly I had about this stuff, that you just couldn’t get this type of linguistic efficiency with no aware factor there. And it simply seems truly that does work. And I believe the slippage between what you may anticipate and what truly occurred is far more attention-grabbing than if you happen to say, “What if we removed taxi medallions and anybody may drive round and choose you up?” That you can form of think about. It’s simply form of like a floor sport logistics operations factor. And this has some thriller on the middle of it the place even the folks engaged on it don’t completely get it.
Robin Sloan (16:46):
I imply, you’ve put your finger on an essential distinction there and that could be a distinction. It’s natural. It’s a know-how that I don’t know if it’s truthful to say for the primary time is form of as a lot natural as engineered or technical.
Alexis Madrigal (17:01):
However kind of like an organism, it’s how these issues on the multi-scale issues work to generate the factor continues to be, that half is form of mysterious. In order that a part of it I discover very attention-grabbing. And on the similar time, it’s additionally occurring in opposition to this socioeconomic and political backdrop that’s a lot extra grim than if you first arrived in San Francisco within the Nineties, which was the survey knowledge bears it out. It’s not simply our vibes. Folks principally thought the world was getting higher. And that isn’t throughout the political spectrum how folks really feel in 2026 as we’re staring down no matter is occurring inside these fashions.
Robin Sloan (17:42):
Is the thriller compelling to you, Annalee? Or are you form of like, “No, I’m okay.”
Annalee Newitz (17:51):
I do know what you imply by the thriller. It’s that we’ve this know-how the place you’ll speak to a developer and so they’re like, “Really, we put in these inputs. We get some outputs. We don’t absolutely perceive what’s taking place in between.” I imply, folks say that about Microsoft merchandise on a regular basis too. You already know what I imply? They’re like, “Oh, this product is so huge. Hundreds of engineers contributed to it. Nobody individual understands Home windows.That ship has sailed. Nobody individual understands a online game, like a premier online game as a result of once more, 1000’s of individuals have contributed to it. So calling it a thriller, certain, it’s a thriller. However the different factor about that’s, as you guys had been speaking, and I believe all of us fall into this as a result of we’re writers and we deal in language and we’re like, however language is the good, most superior factor that makes us human.
(18:42):
And that’s what we’ve over the entire different animals. We’re an animal, however we’re particular as a result of we’ve language. What if it seems language is simply form of nothing huge? What if it’s similar to, oh, the rationale why LLMs can do that so simply is as a result of it seems language isn’t any huge deal. And it’s truly not what makes us cool. What makes us cool is one thing else. That
Robin Sloan (19:05):
Can be one of many nice form of recalibrations of all of historical past, truly. I welcome it.
Alexis Madrigal (19:11):
Yeah.
Annalee Newitz (19:12):
Particularly written language.As a result of take into consideration how bullshit written language actually is. As any individual who I write loads –
Robin Sloan (19:19):
Maintain on. McMillan, we’ve a brand new strap line for to print throughout the entrance of all of Annalee Newitz’s novels.
Annalee Newitz (19:26):
Simply get the audiobook folks. However we consider written language as being this. It was this superb know-how. It has a thriller on the coronary heart of it as a result of oftentimes you possibly can come throughout language with out figuring out the place it got here from. And also you’re like, who wrote this? What even is that this? Linear A, nonetheless making an attempt to determine it out. And I write loads about archeology in my science journalism life. And it truly is the case that historic civilizations that left writing behind are sometimes tougher to grasp than ones that didn’t. And the rationale why is as a result of we get so tricked by the language and we’re like, “Oh, properly, this tradition was simply all about King Jaya Varman.” Yeah. That’s all they although about on a regular basis. And it’s like, no.
Alexis Madrigal (20:08):
The one phase they discovered within the trb. Woodscriribe.
Annalee Newitz (20:11):
Yeah. It was just like the king had the cash and the ability to make folks write stuff. However then there’s all these different those that we’re not even occupied with as a result of we get so enchanted by this one piece of writing that we’ve. Or in Rome the place it’s like the one folks writing are the fellows with energy. They usually’re saying every kind of nasty stuff about freed slaves and intercourse employees. And it’s like, however we don’t know what the reality was. So the writing usually hides the reality is what I’m saying. So writing is cool. I like it. I’m so grateful for it. It’s one thing I’m good at. However possibly it’s simply form of one more – The truth that it could
Alexis Madrigal (20:50):
Reproduce these patterns of our language to you doesn’t impress you as a lot as it would another folks.
Annalee Newitz (20:58):
Nicely, I believe, like I mentioned, possibly that’s the recalibration is possibly we have to say, possibly it’s not spectacular. Perhaps it reveals us that truly writing wasn’t actually that cool of an invention within the first place. And we love writing, maintain writing, however let’s maintain going. Yeah, however
Robin Sloan (21:12):
Let’s speak about another higher innovations just like the noodle.
Annalee Newitz (21:17):
Like cooking. It
Robin Sloan (21:18):
Seems
Annalee Newitz (21:19):
That cooking may truly be a greater
Robin Sloan (21:21):
Invention than writing. I’ve to say, generally I really feel like our conversations about this, and it comes again to humanness and the issues that we love and kind of are happy with in virtually a species stage. They usually really feel like these bullworks, and you then set them up and so they do form of get challenged and even knocked down. In my novel Sourdough, I make an enormous deal concerning the egg check and the way these superb agile robotic arms and so they can do all these nice issues, however they can not crack an egg with the grace of a human cook dinner simply knocking it with one hand. There’s a robotic arm firm down in Palo Alto. They received these new robotic arms. Now I don’t –
Alexis Madrigal (22:01):
CEO emails
Robin Sloan (22:01):
You examine this
Alexis Madrigal (22:02):
Out.
Robin Sloan (22:03):
I don’t know in the event that they learn sourdough. I don’t know in the event that they learn sourdough, however they’ve received some actually slick new demos and they’re cracking some eggs. And I’ll let you know sincerely, I discovered it form of each pleasant and disturbing as a result of I’ve considered that a lot. And I did. I kind of believed in it. And I believe that’s one of many challenges of this time.This has been taking place for the final 10 years with these applied sciences. There have been these very easy methods to say, yeah, yeah, good, however it could’t X. After which it X’s. And the way can we take into consideration that?
Alexis Madrigal (22:35):
I imply, I’m additionally inquisitive about this, Annalee. I might say in your fiction, you come throughout to me as professional robotic. You want to have robots right here on this room with us and you can work together and hang around with them and
Annalee Newitz (22:48):
Run on the
Alexis Madrigal (22:48):
Streets of San Francisco. However how can we get from right here to there minus, I don’t know, some trillions of {dollars} value of funding into LLMs and different issues? Is there a most well-liked route of AI growth for you that might by some means go round a few of these form of financial and political points that you just’re occupied with? That’s such a superb query.
Annalee Newitz (23:11):
It’s a actually good query. I believe that one risk is that we take into consideration this as an financial drawback. There’s means an excessive amount of cash going into the event of LLMs. And we’ve seen the outcomes, which is that it’s getting stuffed into each product, into each service, locations the place we don’t need it, the place we don’t want it, the place it’s truly hindering productiveness relatively than bolstering it. And in order that’s a really unhealthy aspect impact of this big quantity of funding. I don’t suppose we must always make investments no cash in it. I’ve heard plenty of accounts that Anthropics merchandise actually do assist with the event course of and software program. I heard lots of people crying about that like, oh, all of the issues I used to be educated to do, I don’t need to do anymore. However on the similar time, it’s thrilling. It’s a instrument. It’s like a calculator would’ve been again within the nineteenth century.
(24:04):
It’s like, oh, this may help us get to a sure level after which now we are able to develop on prime of it. I might like to see extra involvement of the humanities and social sciences within the growth of LLMs. What if we poured a few of that AI cash into universities the place we examine the human impacts of this? As a result of all of those firms are claiming we’re going to construct people, however we’re not going to seek the advice of the humanities, which is actually the examine of people and tradition. It’s like, how do you make people? How do you make folks with out understanding society? And I’m sorry, however software program growth, like it. It’s nice. It’s not the examine of tradition and society.
Alexis Madrigal (24:49):
I do suppose that a number of the individuals who work on this subject who now are scattered all through the streets of San Francisco, kind of suppose like people suck at figuring stuff out. That the way in which to do it’s to simply plow all the data into the machine and have it discover the patterns of what’s human? Nicely, this factor goes to determine it out. We’re simply going to maintain feeding it each phrase ever put out by people, each video, each uploaded by human. Each podcast episode. Each podcast. After which out on the different finish, they’re simply going to say, what’s a human? And one thing will emerge. Some sample will probably be there. And that’s to me, the kind of bounce on impact of this for town of San Francisco is we’re now like, there’s tons of individuals right here who now suppose within the phrases of those massive language fashions and suppose within the phrases of AI.
(25:44):
And I’m undecided what that’s going to do.
Robin Sloan (25:46):
The time period of artwork for that within the trade and in academia is the bitter lesson. It’s actually referred to as the bitter lesson of knowledge, which additionally sounds just like the title of a superb novel that I might learn. Yeah, bitter
Alexis Madrigal (25:57):
Lesson. I might
Robin Sloan (25:57):
Learn that. Yeah,
Alexis Madrigal (25:59):
Yeah,
Robin Sloan (25:59):
Yeah. Completely. So yeah, individuals are strolling round principally bitter lesson pilled. And it’s like, we’re not going to cause our means – We’re not going to determine something out. Or puzzle our means out. We’re simply going to. Yeah. Completely. Yeah.
Annalee Newitz (26:09):
It’s very nihilistic and it is rather anti-human. I believe that it’s as a lot a mirrored image of up to date politics as it’s of any form of know-how. And once more, the entire cash going into this know-how is a political alternative. Saying that that is the first know-how that’s going to drive our understanding of ourselves. That’s once more, a political alternative. The know-how is simply going alongside doing sentence completion or no matter. It truly is, as Emily and Bender has mentioned, a stochastic parrot. It says horoscope or one thing. However the concept we’ll shovel all of this knowledge right into a machine and get solutions about folks or about society, I believe is a symptom of a tradition the place we’re transferring towards authoritarianism, the place the thought is that some single centralized entity will determine all the things out and make selections for us. After which we don’t have to fret about what precise folks say that they need as a result of the machine says, “Nicely, what you want is X.” Asking the machine what people are is a means of avoiding democracy, avoiding voting, asking the precise people who they’re.
(27:23):
We don’t need to hear from them. They don’t know. And it’s like, truly, it seems we all know finest what’s good for us. And our voices must be heard, not filtered by a machine, by a mannequin that distorts what we imply. Really simply speak to us. Ask us what we would like. I simply need trans folks to be free. And I simply need to have public transit that works. And also you’re not going to get an AI to clarify that to anybody. You need to do it on the voting sales space. You need to do it within the streets.
Robin Sloan (27:56):
Listening to you describe that, it form of creates a paradox. It’s a really vivid paradox of this Titanic effort. I imply, kind of a building effort, an infrastructural effort, a monetary effort pushed not less than partially by exhaustion and kind of a group, a society saying, “I hand over. We are able to’t determine this out. We’re not going to strive anymore. Let’s simply construct a machine God that may
Alexis Madrigal (28:21):
Do it for
Robin Sloan (28:22):
Us.” So what’s the subsequent 5 years seem like proper right here in San Francisco? Overlook the world. Simply take into consideration this. We’re within the sizzling crucible of this bizarre new
Alexis Madrigal (28:31):
Factor. Simply crash out.
Robin Sloan (28:31):
Yeah. Yeah. What do you suppose it appears to be like like, Annalee? That’s the primary query. After which we’ll lastly shut out with what ought to we do? However what do you suppose? What do you suppose is simply forward of us now?
Annalee Newitz (28:42):
I imply, there’s a few pathways. I imply, there’s many pathways. It is a metropolis that likes to burn itself down. We’re proper close to a large earthquake fault. Dangerous issues may occur. We might be on hearth. We might be recovering from every kind of – Are
Alexis Madrigal (28:58):
These the hopeful eventualities or are they
Annalee Newitz (28:59):
Not useful? I’m simply saying – Did you ask for hopeful eventualities?
Alexis Madrigal (29:02):
No, no, no, I wasn’t. I used to be simply
Annalee Newitz (29:03):
Curious.
(29:03):
I believe we’re going to see a backlash to that funding mannequin. We’re additionally going to see, and Robin, you and I had been speaking about this just a little bit earlier than we began recording, and a backlash in opposition to simply the web, data and language that we obtain from locations that we consider as form of polluted by AI slop. I hear lots of people speaking about cozy know-how. How do you create the sensation of coziness that was torn away from us when Twitter became X? So I believe we’re going to see new sorts of group areas, for instance, like native financial system, which Alexis, you’ve labored on so arduous in Oakland, and I simply suppose is completely a mannequin of the long run. And we’re going to see increasingly more of that. We’re going to see extra new sorts of group gatherings in older areas like bars or libraries or colleges.
(29:59):
And I’m extra centered on authenticity being related to one thing being bodily. However I believe that we’re associating folks simply speaking to one another and writing issues down with human connection versus if you happen to do it on the web, you by no means know if an AI wrote it. Did an individual write it? But when I offer you a zine that’s all scribbled and peculiar and I’ve minimize issues up, you’re like, “That’s undoubtedly Annalee.”
Alexis Madrigal (30:29):
I imply, I do suppose you’re proper although, Annalee. I believe that there’s a bonus that’s now accruing to the bodily world and something that’s. I imply, the issue is the phrases now might be printed from an AI, however simply actual precise three-dimensional IRL, real-time interplay immediately has a bonus that it didn’t have earlier than, which is you’re not interacting with AI slop of any form. Wait, earlier than we allow you to go, do you need to inform us about your new guide simply earlier than you
Annalee Newitz (30:58):
Wish to do this? Yeah. So I’m engaged on two issues proper now. One is I’ve a brand new guide popping out in October, which known as A Wall Is Additionally a Street, and it’s a couple of mobile slime mildew who’s a grad scholar. Basic. And the opposite factor I’m engaged on is I’m serving to to reboot the journal Star Log as a print publication.
Robin Sloan (31:18):
As mentioned.
Annalee Newitz (31:19):
No AI slop, nothing. It will likely be solely print and that’s coming in November. So I’m very excited.
Robin Sloan (31:27):
Superb.
Alexis Madrigal (31:27):
A lot to sit up for.
Robin Sloan (31:29):
Yeah. Annalee Newitz, the good chronicler of different minds. Thanks for bringing your actual thoughts right here with us
Alexis Madrigal (31:35):
Of San Francisco.
Robin Sloan (31:36):
Yeah,
Alexis Madrigal (31:36):
What a pleasure.
Annalee Newitz (31:37):
Thanks a lot for having me. Yeah, the fandom may be very mutual.
Alexis Madrigal (31:40):
Annalee Newitz, thanks a lot. Thanks for the guide and the long run books and all the things else.
Annalee Newitz (31:46):
Thanks a lot for having me.
